billion to the economy for no reason. they're betting on we have short memory. i'm voting we'll have long lines waiting to vote and vote for the interests of the american people. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. the wacko birds go pheasant hunting. let's play "hardball." ♪ . good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. let me start tonight with this. halloween is about pretend goblins. we can laugh at what we're afraid of. ghosts, monsters, tea partiers. but ted cruz is for real. he's not just a nightmare but out there this weekend in the broad scary daylight of iowa. he's saying he has nothing to be afraid of. he denies he caused serious

economic damage with the government shutdown even though economists who deal in real numbers say he did. he said the real demons are those moderate republicans who finally ended the shutdown on the edge of the government default. senator cruz is the right wing zealot of the season. his attacks were relentless and have stirred resistance to the health care program. he has hurt economic growth. even as he campaigns on a promise of, guess what, economic growth. he reminds me of the kid who kills his parents and begs the judge mercy on the ground he's an orphan. a perfect candidate for halloween week. howard fine and david corn. both are msnbc political analysts. anyway, next time you hear someone like ted cruz say the shutdown was worth it, don't believe it. usa today on the cover surveyed economists. only 7% say the economists are

more optimistic now than they were three months ago about the history of the country's economic growth. more than half, 56%, say they are less optimistic now after the shutdown. let me go to david on this. or let me start with howard. howard, this story that i do see a pattern here. do your damage and then when you've done your damage, claim the failure was on the part of the person you damaged. i mean, cruz is getting it both ways. screw up the economy, kill public confidence, then say there's a lack of confidence and the economy's not growing as it could so i'm going to bring economic growth. >> chris, i think there's some validity to that based on the numbers. that same study you were talking about estimated that job growth was diminished by at least 60,000 jobs a month over the last few months. and that's going to continue on into next year. it's not like it's stopped because government is back in operation. it will be a continuing ripple effect over the nx year.

and as you point out, this whole scenario could start up again in january and february further zapping consumer confidence. that's 2/3 of the economy is consumer spending. it's one reason why there's a growing angry gulf between tea party republicans such as ted cruz and the business community which has been shut out to some extent that wants its way back in here before things get out of hand. >> you know, i was skeptical, david -- i'll get back to you on this howard. there's cruz out there with his gun identifying with the nra again this weekend. he's tying together various elements of the right. the gun people, the second amendment people, the hunters, very hard right people. not just hunters. or not all hunters. he's doing the kind of thing john kerry did, the kind of thing mitt romney did. when you start seeing hunting season, you're looking at a guy running for president. i know it sounds wacko, but only in this country would the wacko birds make their bones by being

seen with rifle and cam mow or whatever this guy's wearing. >> you know, we've been talking for weeks about the ongoing civil war in the republican party. and a lot of viewers out there might believe it's too early to start discussing 2016. >> i do too. until now. >> but, indeed, all this tension within the republican party is being played out within the early 2016 contest. context. and what you have here is really a fight -- sort of two fights here. one is a fight for who can be the wackiest of the wacko birds and get that wing of the party. the wacko wing of the party seems to be the strongest now. and the other question is is there anybody on the right, you know, the sane, pro-business, whatever republicans who can put that to rest. whether it's chris christie or someone else. just the other day you saw rick santorum who probably wanted to be the wacko bird nominee a couple weeks ago now saying he thinks ted cruz is too far to the right and didn't help with the government shutdown.

so when you see rick santorum doing that, it shows a lot of frustration that cruz has jumped aid head to be the wackiest of them. >> and here we are bird watching. ted cruz still blamed senate republicans for buckling too soon. he said they should have gone off the cliff. let's watch. >> we didn't accomplish our ultimate policy goal in this battle. and we didn't because, unfortunately, a significant number of senate republicans chose not to unite and stand side by side with house republicans. had we stood together, i'm convinced the outcome of this fight would be very, very different. >> howard, what do you make of this guy's hand gestures? there's something evangelical about it. something for sunday morning on television. but there's something demonstrative about it. it's like he's deciding who's in, you know, and who's out.

he's putting these bunches of senators in his hands. i'll shake some of these up and look nicely on the other ones. it's a strange way of making a point. but it's very provocative. it's like he's giving the orders and he's saying who the bad guys are. >> chris, a couple things. he definitely does have the evangelical, the texas evangelical style. which he gets from his own father who's a preacher. a businessman turned preacher in texas. this is the world that ted cruz grew up in, the sort of preaching from the pulpit -- the secul secular pulpit, if you will. but it's not that secular. his religious framework is one of believing church values should be guiding society, not government. they set up a direct conflict between government and faith. that's what he's pursuing. both with his hand gestures and his politics. don't forget, chris, in iowa

evangelicals are an important, important part if not the dominant part of the grassroots of the republican party. and as david said, if 2016's already underway, ted cruz is making a direct play in words and gesture for the evangelical vote in iowa, which is where the whole thing begins in the republican presidential contest. >> tell me first and then david. what is the republican right, what is the "we" they talk about. it doesn't include minorities and hispanics. it is to suppose white evangelicals, anti-government, what else? what are the pieces of this right wing -- the "we" when he talks about we americans. the vast majority of americans when it comes to information about who's buying guns and background checks. 89% of us, that means the american people literally, are for background checks. so who are they talking about,

howard? it doesn't include progressives, certainly. it doesn't include moderates because he's dumping all over the very idea of moderation now. so it means conservative right wing gun toting anti-government. and evangelical. >> couple quick things. everybody in the society enjoys the fruits of social security and medicare eventually. so they all believe in government to that extent. but this is cultural. i would divide it between church going rural -- this is an over-simplification. church going rural and -- that then involves the bible belt, the nra, the belief in the privacy of faith over government even if you are taking your social security and your medicare versus the cities. and barack obama lawyer from a big northern city, et cetera. and the more secular values of the big city i see it as a city

versus rural thing ultimately. >> it's texas without austin, north carolina without chapel hill or charlotte. >> but the interesting thing, too, here is when he talks about we americans, what he's really saying is we real americans. >> who are they? >> you know, the group that howard just defined. there's something about this that is evangelical both in religion and political and cultural. if you listen to cruz's father speaking at some of these evangelical churches, he has an us versus them view spiritually. there's a minority of real christia christians. not all christians. it's real christians who understand what's going on. they're going to benefit and the world and the country depends upon them. you take that out to the secular political realm and it's we americans, we don't even have to be in the majority. it's just we who don't like barack obama who want our guns

who don't want obama care, we're the real americans. so it's not as if we have a culturally politically diverse country going on. and we go back and forth in between who wins and loses in policy fights, it's about what ask the real america. i think it has tremendously deep religious roots as well. >> i didn't start out the way i am politically. i moved from right to left. and i began even in college or younger i thought we do need social security. everybody can't end up on welfare because they didn't have enough real savings out of their work. you need a program to get people to save. and you need medicare for people who don't have health. nobody could pay the health care costs these days on their own. and you need civil rights. you can't wait for the southern states to agree 3/4 of the states. there had to be measures to move society ahead. that's when i started thinking through the libertarianism as a kid. but when cruz offers this libertarianism for kids like we don't really need social

security or medicare. we don't need civil rights. all this stuff was taken care of, but no responsibility those were good things. does he ever say the democrats were right to do medicare or social security or civil rights? he doesn't offer any compromise intellectually. like we're always right to be hard right wing opposed to everything. yet everybody with a brain knows that's not true. >> i know, chris. i would say to some extent ted cruz is going to take what's given to him on the table. >> right. in other words, say we got social security and medicare, i'm not arguing about that. >> i'm not talking about that. and there aren't enough democrats and progressives who have the same evangelical secular evangelical fervency that david's talking about to defend in a moral way the role of government. i think president obama tries to do it. he speaks the words, but you don't always feel the emotion behind it and you don't feel the struggles behind it. every generation has to fight

for these things anew. and there's a generational struggle every time out. i think right now the sense of mission and fervency on the right as represented by somebody like ted cruz is fiery, is attractive to their base in a way that i'm not sure all the time that president obama's is to the base of progressives and the democratic party. >> i agree. >> so cruz is operating -- cruz is fighting on the other team's turf at this point. >> yeah. but i tell you, real quick here david. i want you to finish up. if you're a minority in this country, you can hear cruz. if you have doubts like a lot of people do about their religion, if you have any kind of secular attitudes or if you have any liberal progressive thoughts or you're realistic about the need for social security, medicare, and civil rights don't you see this guy is the real enemy? somebody that could really be dangerous. >> it all depends on how big the other side is, the group he's

playing to. his father believes in dominion christianity. that these people have been anointed to take over. and ted cruz has that sort of fervor. he does seem to believe he's somewhat of a prophet. and to what degree he can expand that appeal beyond the people who go to the megachurches where his dad and people like him are popular remains to be seen. but we do see in the republican party over the last four to eight years that that's where the heart of the party is. it's the old evangelical religious right has become the tea party. they're one in the same. and there's a little more of a libertarian streak put into that. and he is going right at the heart of that. i think that puts him in a very good position for the time being. >> by the way, i want to make a point. it's stand your ground. it's very much second amendment. this guy is not looking out for the regular person out there on the street worried about too

many guns. when he walks around with the guns, i think that's religion for you? that's your idea of religion? guns? anyway, thank you, gentlemen. coming up, the gop has two sides facing off against each other. and then there are the electable republicans back east. like ken cuccinelli versus chris christie. and who's going to win the fight of that fight? who's going to be the 2016 republican. and 60 minutes hit the benghazi button hard. can hillary clinton put that behind her? and a good sign for the president's health care website. once it gets fixed. it came soon enough. the website is now a live target for "snl." >> still need guns? consult healthcare.gov's frequently asked questions for topics like "what the hell". "how have i been on the same

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ted cruz may end up a big winner one day in iowa. but in new hampshire he's off the pace. look at this new poll on the new hampshire republican presidential primary. the big leaders right now are rand paul and chris christie. paul's at 17%, christie behind at 16%. next coming paul ryan and jeb bush. ted cruz is well behind with just 6%. we'll be right back. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro.

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welcome back to "hardball." in the upcoming marquee contest of 2013, the new jersey and virginia governors races, we see the conflicting problem at the root of the republican civil war. the focus is on ideological purity. he believes they need to be the

extreme right. terry mcauliffe, his friend spoke about the extreme nature of the republican candidate and anger as his motivator. >> the one political virtue of extremism is this. if you can really get people all hot and bothered and their insides in knots, full of anger, steam coming out of their ears instead of a light bulb in their brains, they'll vote. they'll show up every time. >> that's proof of bill clinton's ability. he grew up as a governor in arkansas where he always had to worry about the hard right. anyway, an average of all the most recent polling by real clear politics has mcauliffe up by nine points in virginia. in new jersey we see a difference. winning. chris christie's focus is on winning elections. today the basketball star and

like by guy shaquille o'neal was in an ad endorsing christie. >> he's a good man. excuse me. he's a great man. please join me in supporting chris christie for governor. >> the governor, that's the tag line. the real clear politics poll has him in front by 26 points. i think it's possible to understand, joy, that there's such a thing as a smart politician. not just an ideological or right or middle of the road politicians. they can lose just like ideologues can. not necessarily in his league but around the aaa level is this guy christie. i think the way he's running his campaign is guaranteed to get him 70%. >> don't you love the way president clinton getting more southern when he gets into it. >> you can do it too.

>> if pressed i could. but i think christie understands how to be a conservative running in a blue state. he's calibrating his whole political life, his whole political being a calibrated to new jersey which is a blue state. christie understood that. he also does something smart and expensive. he moved his election so he didn't even have to confront the existence of cory booker. he separated those two. you don't even have to think about the democrat who's also fairly popular, not as popular as he is, in that state. >> fairly popular is fair enough. and i think it's interesting on the ethnic front. suburban republicans don't want to be thinking -- anybody thinking they've got an ethnic problem. you take a fella who's extremely likable like shaquille o'neal and who has been always good at commercials. he's good at making the pitch. this is good timing too. i think bringing in a nonpartisan person of color and

obviously an attractive celebrity, bringing him in at this point sort of makes it easy for the softer democrat to go, i think i'll vote for the republican this time. >> no question. shaquille o'neal has been known for great closure when it came to world championships. i think he'll help close it out for chris christie in this race. christie has run almost a textbook perfect campaign. i think he'll have a great run. >> you don't have to take ideological positions on everything. you can get away from abortion rights. anyway, here was ted cruz on friday making a case against running moderates. never forget what you hear now. this is the voice of the hardest right who says there's something wrong with compromise, something wrong with moderation. this is barry goldwater 2013. here he is, barry's back. >> what all the washington strategists say in 2014?

let's go back to the model of '06, '08, and '12. pushing on obama care, that's risky. no, no, no. keep your head down and we'll win races. that's not how you win races. that's based on the oh, so clever idea that if your opponent is here in the spectrum, you want to be infan test mally to their right so you can capture every voter where you are. the problem is if you do that, you destroy any reason everyone has to show up and vote. >> i think i just heard the barry goldwater anthem right there. >> i'm not a washington strategist. i'm a pret pi hard right guy as middle east people on your show tweet me after the show to tell me i am.

if you want to govern, you have to compromise. i'm pretty pure on a lot of issue, but i support candidates i don't always agree with 100% of the time. i've only found one politician i agreed with 100% of the time and that's me. and that's what we've got to deal with. >> that's pretty honest of you. the politician you agree with 100% of the time often diverges from you over time. i also noticed that dynamic, joy. you think they're completely with you. then wait a minute, that's another person. that's not me. >> until they're not. what's fascinating to me in a lot of this is that senators and governors both have to win statewide. but they live in different ideological worlds. if you're a governor you have to get elected and you live there. if you're a senator, you get elected to washington and you go there. and you decant to those positions. somebody like ted cruz i can't imagine being the governor of any state.

even though he's a far to the right too. >> the mayor of austin will call him up and say we have problems with the sewers, can you help me? he'll put that evangelical arm out to that. don't come to me. you're from the wrong side. but others will do that. >> when it came to driver's licenses or in-state tuition for illegal immigrants in his state, he did that. he had been h to be on certain issues in order to govern. >> and he wants to have people who are helpful and productive citizens with good academic backgrounds. why wouldn't you want to make your people better educated? >> exactly. >> a candidate's position on the woman's right to choose, for example, has been a frequent way to measure party purity. today senator rand paul said scientific advancements could lead to selection of the hereditary qualities that would

populate a species unless they fight against abortion rights right now. let's listen to this scary talk. >> in your lifetime much of your potential or maybe lack thereof will be known simply by swabbing the inside of your cheek. in the process, will we perhaps eliminate something, some part of our humanness, some part of our specialness if we seek perfection? will we be flying too close to the sun? but my hope, though, is that we don't lose our appreciation of the miracle that springs forth from tiny strands of dna. >> joy, that reference was probably better applied to that guy talking than it is to the mother trying to get the perfect kid. why don't we wait for the mother to be who does decide her about to be baby is too short to have an abortion before we start criticizing this behavior. because it certainly is imaginative on his part. i wonder what it's got to do with the election for governor

in 2013. >> itwhen you think science is ooel and it's going to destroy us. what about the fact you bring children into e the world but you follow the ethos that denies them programs because you want to shut down the government, children who can't get a nutritious meal going to school and cutting after-school programs. it doesn't make sense saying get them into the world and then to hell with them. but that's what these guys are putting forward. and he's helping a guy ken cuccinelli who's so far to the right, i don't know how women will support him. he's against contraception. >> i remember being born into a world where there were 3% college loans. thank you. up next, the affordable care act is certainly popular with one crowd. the late night comics. this is "hardball." i think "snl" is "hardball"

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i love this country. americans have waited 70 years for affordable health care. but if the website takes more than an hour, [ bleep ] it i'm watching a cat video. >> i saw the most unbelievable video today. this is real. this is unbelievable. watch what happened. look at this cat. look at that! how is that possible? >> time now for the sideshow. like it or not, healthcare.gov has been a popular subject for late night comedians. "saturday night live" was no exception this past weekend. here is their interpretation of kathleen sebelius. >> still need guns? consult healthcare.gov's frequently asked questions for

topics like "what the hell," "how have i been on the same page for three hours," "does obama care cover mental issues caused by this website." and the most frequent is "who the government." and then a postcard with the word help to u.s. government. attention internet problems, washington, d.c. and in six to eight weeks you'll receive an informational brochure along with a trial version of incarta encyclopedia plus 1,000 free hours of aol. >> everybody hates paperwork. up next, despite the problems with the federal health care website, the system's working and working well on the state level on states, that is, who want it to work. in those states. that's bad news for the haters out there. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happened. a federal judge has declared part of a new texas law placing restrictions on abortions as unconstitutional. the ruling allows a number of effecting abortion clinics in that state to stay open. penn state says it will pay nearly $60 million to men who claim they were sexually abused by jerry sandusky. and inmates that escaped through a shower room have been caught. back to "hardball." we've got to implement this health care law. the computer deal will get fiked up. don't worry about that. everybody's forgotten, by the way, that when george w. bush a republican put that medicare

part "d" drug program in, it was more unpopular than the health care law and they had terrible problems with the computers. our side, we're not so ideological. so instead of screaming about how incompetent they were, we tried to help people understand the law and make it work. >> welcome back to "hardball." isn't he great? that was former president bill clinton stumping for terry mcauliffe. coming up next, we're going to talk about what really happened in benghazi. first let's look at how the health care exchanges are working. as former president clinton just said there, the medicare part "d" program had its fair share of glitches. but the democrat rs wanted to make the program work and didn't root for its failure as the republicans are doing with the affordable care act today. and despite the problems with the federal website, the system is working and even, catch this, exceeding expectations in states that set up their own websites. dr. e sethank you for joining u.

you know what you're talking about. exceeding kpl exceeding expectations. what is the key in working in different states? >> well, i think in some places it's just having everyone work together to try to get the website up and running and to quickly address the glitches that inevitably come out. so in california and colorado, it was not ideological. everyone agreed they had to do it. and they put competent people in place. they tested it out. they tested end from end. so that you started as a consumer and you completed the process to make sure it all worked. and also they brought the insurers in early to sort of assess it and make sure that it was working to their specifications to reveal all the flaws they were worried about. and i think those are the kinds of things you need. plus they had a very good --

most states that work well had a good ceo at top who controlled the operation. >> let me go to you sisi. in some cases some waited until the clock ran out and said you do it. then it was a lot of pressure. these are the states that refused to build their own health care exchanges. which has created more stress on the website. it's the southern and republican-controlled states whose lawmakers want this law to fail in many cases and are all led by republican governors but for one. on the other hand, there are the others led by democratic governors that set up their own health care exchanges. and in kentucky, new york, oregon, washington state they are exceeding expectations and seeing overwhelming enrollment. is that fair? opposed to those who sat around and waited to dump it on the federal government to see if

they could blow it. >> well, certainly, chris, the delays have hurt enormously. we all know that. we also know gets funding for these exchanges were difficult. many of the parameters and basic instructions in terms of what they wanted the website to look like and do didn't come until very late in the process. i think another distinction between many of those state exchanges and the federal operation, the states have been a little bit leaner and meaner, if you will. they've made some decisions to simplify some of the steps on the websites. they've decided to postpone some of the extra complexities. and in doing that, they've been much more nimble than the big federal bureaucracy with so many different agencies and vendors attempting to talk to each other. that's where the mess has come in. >> let me go back to zeke on this question. did you see bill clinton there? he was standing behind terry mcauliffe.

he said this computer thing, he flipped his hand like it's no big deal. do you think it is no big deal? he made it seem like it was just a little flap. it'll be all right by november 30th, a date we now focus on. it's all going to be over. your thoughts. >> so i think in the big sweep of history in the five or ten year sweep of history, he's absolutely right. it'll be no big deal. in a year or two we're going to get it right and then it's going to be smooth and everyone will assume it's part of the background infrastructure. but i do think that there is a sort of uncertain period here where we don't know the full extent of the problem still yet. and we're hoping they'll be able to get it good enough by november 30th that you can shop in a relatively short amount of time. i do think that's an important date. then you give people two weeks before they can get insurance before the january 1st start date. but ultimately, whether they get it on january 1st or february

1st i think is less material from the long sweep of history. this mostly is blocking and tackling. this isn't reinventing a major piece of equipment or reinventing code that you need to start from scratch. and how long -- that can still take a long time, chris. we need to be serious about that. >> cici, you're smiling. you had to deal with deadline reality. not just the long haul. anyway, my question -- i think it was somebody smart. >> it was john mainer. >> okay. let me go to you. in terms of daily reporting, why has it been such a big story that even the late night comics are into it? that the average person knows exactly what the problem is. you can't get online, you can't make it happen. >> i think the reason this has captured the attention and imagination of so many people are two. one, we've been struck by how many americans are out there needing health care.

that's a big signal. number two, we do so much online. we do so much shopping and live our daily lives on our devices, our cell phones, our computers. that we just figured it was going to go as smoothly as all of those others go. but let me just say, chris. i agree with zeke in terms of the long haul. but if you lose these people who are interested right now, it might be hard to bring them back. >> that's the issue. it's the branding issue. >> i think the president -- >> it's the branding. >> we could get them back. thank you. we'll be right back. bunch of rotating categories" card. it's not the "sign up for rewards each quarter" card. it's the no-games, no-messing-'round, no-earning-limit-having, do-i-look-like-i'm-joking, turbo-boosting, heavyweight-champion- of-the-world cash back card. this is the quicksilver cash back card from capital one. unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere, every damn day. now, tell me, what's in your wallet?

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up next, benghazi. why didn't our people get help? "hardball" back after this. i started part-time, now i'm a manager.n. my employer matches my charitable giving. really. i get bonuses even working part-time. where i work, over 400 people are promoted every day. healthcare starting under $40 a month. i got education benefits. i work at walmart. i'm a pharmacist. sales associate. i manage produce. i work in logistics. there's more to walmart than you think. vo: opportunity. that's the real walmart.

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who was based in nearby tripoli. this is hicks reliving the moment that help wasn't on its way. >> you had this conversation. you ask him what military assets are on their way. and he says -- >> effectively, they're not. and i for a moment, i just felt lost. i just couldn't believe the answer. and then i made the call to the chief. i said you've got to tell those guys there may not be help coming. >> brandon webb is a former u.s. navy s.e.a.l. and author of "benghazi: the definitive report." let me go to brandon first. this is the question that gets to me. if you're out there pinned down and the word gets back to washington in realtime at the national security agency or national security desk, why didn't we try to send somebody from somewhere? what happened?

>> hi, chris. i think people need to understand this is a situation where as much as the people on the ground working with the state department in libya knew that the threat was there and requested security, the state department just wasn't prepared to deal with this situation. and by being prepared, you have a list of things that when something goes wrong like this you go down that list and make certain phone calls and notify certain people. and that just wasn't the case. they had numbers from the d.o.d. that had expired. then you run into a situation where these agencies, the cia, the state department, and the military don't necessarily talk to each other and are in communications as much as you'd think. >> you know, as an american that doesn't work for me. the president, the security agency people are sitting in the white house. they're getting an instantaneous report of what's going on there.

what weren't they looking at? where was the u.s. cavalry to use an american image. where were the people that could have come that tried to get there within however many hours it took to save the lives of the people still living. why people that were still living? where were they and why couldn't they do it? i'll ask that question until i get an answer. >> i agree. there's some blame on the secretary of defense. our sources say that obama, before he left on that campaign trip, told panetta, you do everything talk save those people. so, i think a lot of people in the military are wondering that were sitting there standing by ready to go, why wasn't the call sent down to send those folks in? but a lot of people need to understand, you know, when you add the cia and the heroes that went on their own, took their own initiative. >> that's what i'm impressed by. you hear about the guys who got in there, grabbed their uniform, grabbed their weapons, got on a plane and were stopped en route. that's unbelievable! like people who were volunteer fire department racing to save their colleagues, and what happened to them? >> well, i think that, you know,

the two heroes of the day are glen doherty and ty woods, the two navy s.e.a.l. cia contractors that were taking the initiative that day along with the jsoc or the joint special operations command troops on the ground that noticed, you know, having worked in that military system, noticing that help isn't on the way and took their own initiative to go in and rescue these folks, and you know, largely, most of the americans in benghazi were evacuated, and relatively few lives were lost, other than the ambassador, shawn smith, and the two navy s.e.a.l.s. >> let me ask you, jay newton small, about the politics of this thing. i know it's a hot opportunity for the republicans, but my interest is on facts, and the facts questions i have about this are what was the state department's role in realtime, not beforehand, but at the time of the attack in defending the lives of their people, especially the u.s. ambassador, what was a friend, a friend of the secretary of state's, hillary clinton? what was their actions what was the tick-tock what did they do

when they got the warning of the attack? >> hillary in her testimony before congress said she was there, she was, you know, on the ground, in the state department listening to the response in realtime on the phone as it was happening, and so, she knew what was happening. but again, they also testified that there were waves of attacks, so they thought that after the first wave that things were quieting down. that's when they said, well, maybe we don't need to send help, and help was really far away. it wasn't like it was next door. it was several hours away in italy, so -- >> but the fight went on for seven hours. >> yeah, but then if you're doing it in waves, you think the attack is over and sending somebody's not going to help anymore, right? then all of a sudden, they attack again. >> now, let me ask you something, is that what your brother or father in there, would you say that's an acceptable response? oh, it's probably over by now, it's no good to send somebody? or i don't care if it's over or not, i'm going to collect the bodies if nothing else, get there and show i cared. that's what i'd do. >> these are questions that hillary will have to answer and -- >> and the president and national security adviser and everybody sitting in that room.

we had lots of coverage of people when we killed bin laden, we hada lot of coverage with that. there's a lot of photographers around with that. how come this is shrouded in mystery? how come months later we're still trying to figure out what happened? i want to know, what happened? did everybody do what they were supposed to do? did everybody make a desperate effort to save the lives of our people over there or didn't they? if they didn't, that's a problem, but i want an answer. >> i think the biggest problem, chris, is the state department's own security environment threat list lists benghazi and tripoli in the top ten of the most dangerous facilities the state department has worldwide, and a lot of people don't realize, tripoli was evacuated -- the embassy in tripp lee evacuated as well. so a lot of blame is on the state department for not being prepared for the response to communicate effectively to the military to get help. they really left their people hanging and i see them in patrick kennedy.

>> are the republicans doing this right? i'm not a big fan of darrell issa because i think he's on staff for publicity half the time, but is it possible we could hope that democrats and republicans on the committees when they look at this, will focus intently on the reasonable questions like why -- did we do as much as we could at the time? that's to me the most important. >> these are questions that hillary is absolutely going to have to put to rest and answer if she's going to ever run for president in 2016. it's a huge sort of black mark on her. she'll really have to answer, say what was she doing? why wasn't help given? and when you look at her first term as secretary of state or obama's first term when she was secretary of state, what were the achievements that she had? i mean, she normalized relations with burma, but -- >> i just care about what happened that night, because i do think, i think that lindsey graham's on to something here. and i know he has to cover his rear end in terms of the right wing in that primary challenge, but sometimes politics does coincide with reasonable government. thank you, brandon webb, and thank you, jane newton-small.

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"let me finish" tonight with this. progressives, let's face it, you're up to a new level of adversary. senator ted cruz and company are not playing by the usual rules of political warfare. no geneva conventions for this crowd. they shut down the government, tried to run the rest of us off the fiscal cliff, then instead of showing any shame, come back this weekend and said that it didn't go far enough, that the

real bad guys, they say, are their fellow republicans, who said enough, we're not going to destroy the u.s. economy to score some political points. none of that squeamish patriotism for senator cruz. the texas senator was out there pheasant hunting with steve king raising the question of who to root for, the pheasants or the wacko birds? well, this hunting season for votes, who could forget mitt romney's focus on small varmints, not to mention the other prestal candidates who have had to display their guns, suggesting that the senator from alamo country may be ready to run himself for president. i'm hopeful they hae tries it. it would be good to see this man's full-scale program for our country, what he'd do to insure tens of millions of out there for health care, how he'd finance social security and medicare for the long haul, what wars he'd fight, how he'd bring peace and security to our country, how he would work the bipartisan compromises we need to meet the country's challenges. all he does now is stand back from government, take pot shots at pheasants and democrats alike, leaving the real work of running this country to the people dressed for work, instead